Curse

Kaleban · May 17, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

You said it has a surprising factor, and got my reply about you being wrong that this factor is needed in PvE, it is not, mobs are AI not people, and PvE is not competitive

No its not. I said that having shadowsteps in PvE can be advantageous for aggro management, such as using Augury and another like Recall or Return to get out. Or my favorite ss, Shadow Fang

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oH GOSH, you have just said that jumping into the fray and bringing aggro on yourself as an Assassin is a good thing, this argument is so bad...so bad....that it made be laugh out loud!

Igor, have you even PLAYED the game? As an Assassin, most builds require you to get within melee range, the whole "melee caster" thing. What skills like AoD allow you to do is stay out until it is advantageous to be in melee, such as your target being under 50% health with a Deep Wound and ready to be spiked.

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When you face mobs such as afflicted elementalists, you should stay the hell away from their damage and kill the things as fast as possible and not rape the energy of you poor healers on saving your poor ass.

Again, AoD allows you to do this, once a warrior or hero/hench has aggro, you AoD the target, then once it gets below 50%, you teleport to it, inflicting a DW, and allowing you to usually finish it off with a chain. That's why AoD's condition is under 50% health, its designed to allow you to spike, and when combined with AP, give you most of your energy back. Besides, what DA sin is not packing interrupts/KD to keep you from even being hurt once you ss to the target?

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Your PvP argument I didnt even understand, it doesnt make sence.....at all.....

Its very simple, try using FH! in Random Arenas. The point is not to depend on a skill which can only be used in one part of the game.

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Your argument about AP and AoDeath is just pathetic and self contredictory....damn....if you have no energy problems thanks to AP and reachrge is not an issue, why the hell you would chose an inferior skill with similar triggering effect of FH! but that doesnt deal any damage and can potentially put you at a high risk, just tell me why?

Because most people don't depend on one skill to save them. As I said, AP makes recharges irrelevant, and largely e-cost as well, however, FH! has no synergy with any assassin skills, such as melee DA combos that start with Iron Palm. If you're KD-locking your opponent with the build I posted, and doing 200+ damage after application of a Deep Wound at under 50% health, you're pretty much guaranteed a kill, considering there's no way to block.

Quote:

Build you have shown are quite innefective, I dodnt like them.

Because you haven't tried them and are apparently the FH! spokesman on the forums. As I asked before have you even played this game, or more specifically an assassin caster? Or do you just look at the skill with the most whiz bang and figure it must be the best?

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Overall most of you post's contest either was terribly wrong or didnt make sense.

I could say the same about you, especially considering all you do is post opinion with no build, logic or rationale to actually back up your statements. Of course, you do keep repeating that anyone who disagrees with you is "terribly, horribly wrong" and adding lots of smiley faces, but that does not make you right. Sorry to burst your bubble.

petrorabbit · May 17, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

No its not. I said that having shadowsteps in PvE can be advantageous for aggro management, such as using Augury and another like Recall or Return to get out. Or my favorite ss, Shadow Fang

So for [Recall] you really want to shutdown your bar for 10 seconds after you jump out? I'm going to assume a competent monk can get you back to full health in under 5 seconds, so you'll have 5 seconds of doing nothing.

[Return] is a good escape, but I really dont' see it fitting on an already crowded AP bar, and possibly an assassacaster(assuming your go DA heavy).

The best shadowstep that is good for aggro management is [Aura of Displacement]. Why? Because if you do get aggro, you can jump out of the fight safely and reliably all in 1 skill slot.

The other good aggro management shadowstep combo is [shadow walk] with [dash].

Quote:

Again, AoD allows you to do this, once a warrior or hero/hench has aggro, you AoD the target, then once it gets below 50%, you teleport to it, inflicting a DW, and allowing you to usually finish it off with a chain. That's why AoD's condition is under 50% health, its designed to allow you to spike, and when combined with AP, give you most of your energy back. Besides, what DA sin is not packing interrupts/KD to keep you from even being hurt once you ss to the target?

If your waiting till the target is at 50%, your not being anything usefull to the group.

Another big quiestion: Why are you using AoDeath in an AP build when [Twisting Fangs] has always been the superior DW applicator? Look at how well it synergizes with [Signet of Deadly Corruption] and look at how many ap spikes utilize it. [Augury of Death] only goes on an assassacaster bar, and still [Finish Him] can do that job better without getting pulled into danger. Besides, AoDeath is more for pvp assassacasters, PvE has better options.

Super Igor · May 18, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

No its not. I said that having shadowsteps in PvE can be advantageous for aggro management, such as using Augury and another like Recall or Return to get out. Or my favorite ss, Shadow Fang

As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......Shall I say it again?.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......And one more time if you are stupid..........As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......And one more for luck..........As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......Clear?!

You have 70AL....You have no unstripable bonuses....you dont have a Shield equipped all the time....you are just not fit for managing aggro, just not, your best defense is you offense, huge offense you can pack, the ability to kill things at probably fastest rates in game, so as an Assassin, get you minion wall and/or higher AL character to manage aggro for you while you kill stuff. Please!......Please dont try to convince me that [critical agility] makes you a tank...it doesnt...it is an ecnhie, that can be stripped and will be stripped...it does help...it increases you surviveablity and dps...but it doesnt make you a tank.

You Kaleban...in my oppinion dont know a thing about Assassins...and probably not much...not much at all about the game in general. Shadow stepping into the mob brings it on yourself....all aggro on yourself...a Warrior can allow itself to do that with its high armor like they do all the time in the Deep for example but not an Assassin....because chances are....when you do this move safely or your backline, aka, overextending slightly to allow the aggro to settle on you before the healers can assist you...you would die...before they get to you...or atlest would be damaged quite a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Igor, have you even PLAYED the game? As an Assassin, most builds require you to get within melee range, the whole "melee caster" thing. What skills like AoD allow you to do is stay out until it is advantageous to be in melee, such as your target being under 50% health with a Deep Wound and ready to be spiked.

Yes, I did and do play the game...and as far as I can see, know quite more then you do about it, especially the Assassin class which ou Kaleban...never played or not fit to play.

Anyway! GtG, cant comment on the rest of the bad...and funny stuff Kaleban had written there.

Tough...............+1 @Petrorabbit, as he has stated the exact thing I was talking about and was leading to, again.

Bobby2 · May 18, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......Shall I say it again?.......As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......And one more time if you are stupid..........As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......And one more for luck..........As an Assassin you dont manage aggro.......Clear?!

The notion that 'taking pressure of your backliners' makes you a 'tank'. Hilarious.

[skill]save yourselves[/skill] makes everybody but you a tank at AL160 minimum, so you don't have to worry anymore as you are doing your part to help them. Before SY! made my bar, I ran back to my casters to save them quite often = aggro management, even if it is only to slaughter the threat presented.

The skill I used for this wasn't some lame Shadow Step: [skill]dash[/skill]

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

First thanks to RavagerofDreams for the credits of articles used. Secondly here is another use of Assassins Promise in PvE that also compliments the use of Shadow Sanctuary at a high rank and Deadly Haste (somewhat underused skills in general), primarily used to spike down important targets within a mob.

[build prof=Assassin/any Deadly=12+1+1 Critical=12+1][Deadly Haste][Dancing Daggers][Entangling Asp][Augury of Death][Signet of Toxic Shock][Assassins Promise][Shadow Sanctuary][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Feel free to use within your guide however you see fit, oh and critical wanding ftw!

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

So for [Recall] you really want to shutdown your bar for 10 seconds after you jump out? I'm going to assume a competent monk can get you back to full health in under 5 seconds, so you'll have 5 seconds of doing nothing.

[Return] is a good escape, but I really dont' see it fitting on an already crowded AP bar, and possibly an assassacaster(assuming your go DA heavy).

The best shadowstep that is good for aggro management is [Aura of Displacement]. Why? Because if you do get aggro, you can jump out of the fight safely and reliably all in 1 skill slot.

The other good aggro management shadowstep combo is [shadow walk] with [dash].

I can't believe you haven't even mentioned [Ebon Escape] with its short recharge and healing of both the Assassin and the player the Assassin shadowsteps too. One of the best mobility tools in PvE imo as it can not only be used to get you onto the backline out of the way of combat but also onto the frontline with your tank to get into the combat while healing him too.

RavagerOfDreams · May 18, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

added Unreals da build cuz we didnt have a example yet.

Also i think people misunderstood me when i said sins can "tank". Tanking for me isn't holding all the aggro on yourself (in fact i think thats bad in general) im merely saying you can be a little bolder then normal due to the fact you have a raised AL. This of course doesn't mean you shouldn't send your henchies/minions in first as of course its the smart thing to do

also your very welcome about the credits. you all contributed so i thought u deserved some love

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

[edit] Deadbolt, try something like:

[skill]Augury of Death[/skill][skill]Iron Palm[/skill][skill]Entangling Asp[/skill][skill]Mantis Touch[/skill][skill]Blinding Powder[/skill][skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill] and any two of the following:

[skill]Sadist's Signet[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Shadows[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Toxic Shock[/skill]

If you switch out [skill]Blinding Powder[/skill] with [skill]Vampiric Assault[/skill] (need to switch to daggers for the attack) you could then use [skill]Signet of Deadly Corruption[/skill] but you'd need to find somewhere to add in one more condition to max out the Signet's damage. With a build like this you stay almost completely with Deadly Arts, except for the bit you'd need in Shadow Arts.

You're better of running a Fevered Dreams Assassin to spread all those conditions around the mob really.

[build prof=assas/mesme dagger=12+1 critic=8+1 deadly=10+1 illusi=3][Fevered Dreams][Shadow Walk][You Move Like A Dwarf][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Dash][Signet of Deadly Corruption][Resurrection Signet][/build]

You can quite easily take [Signet of Toxic Shock] to replace [Resurrection Signet] if you wish too.

Bobby2 · May 18, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

[skill]shadow sanctuary[/skill]

[skill]assassin's promise[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill]

Really, REALLY: to hell with the SA line

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[skill]assassin's promise[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill]

Really, REALLY: to hell with the SA line

They synergize nicely with [Shadow Sanctuary] when using a Dagger chain. Very nice.

Super Igor · May 18, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

^agreed

/12

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Can also use it in conjunction with Plague Touch.

@RavagerofDreams:

The PvE DA chain I provided should actually be this as it provides better results:

[build prof=Assassin/any Deadly=12+1+1 Critical=12+1][Deadly Haste][Dancing Daggers][Entangling Asp][Signet of Toxic Shock][Finish Him][Assassins Promise][Shadow Sanctuary][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Kaleban · May 18, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

So for [Recall] you really want to shutdown your bar for 10 seconds after you jump out? I'm going to assume a competent monk can get you back to full health in under 5 seconds, so you'll have 5 seconds of doing nothing.

[Return] is a good escape, but I really dont' see it fitting on an already crowded AP bar, and possibly an assassacaster(assuming your go DA heavy).

Just examples of what can be used in conjunction with AoD for aggro management and placement.

Quote:

The best shadowstep that is good for aggro management is [Aura of Displacement]. Why? Because if you do get aggro, you can jump out of the fight safely and reliably all in 1 skill slot.

The other good aggro management shadowstep combo is [shadow walk] with [dash].

I wouldn't take [skill]Aura of Displacement[/skill] on an assacaster since it doesn't allow for other, better elites. For PvE, there's Promise, and for PvP stuff like Beguiling Haze. I do like the SW/Dash combo though.

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If your waiting till the target is at 50%, your not being anything usefull to the group.

Here's where you're wrong I think. If, as an assacaster, you know that once a target reaches 50%, your chain will kill them and then recharge through AP, this then allows you to simply pop to each enemy as the group wears them down and destroy them. The assassin is made for single target damage, and this sort of "popcorn" technique is quite beneficial when you consider the amount of damage you'll be pumping out. Besides, in PvE, targets generally don't get killed one at a time, considering minion walls and skills like [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] that spread damage around. So once several targets get low, you pop your chain on them in rapid succession, and start blowing things up!

Quote:

Another big quiestion: Why are you using AoDeath in an AP build when [Twisting Fangs] has always been the superior DW applicator? Look at how well it synergizes with [Signet of Deadly Corruption] and look at how many ap spikes utilize it. [Augury of Death] only goes on an assassacaster bar, and still [Finish Him] can do that job better without getting pulled into danger. Besides, AoDeath is more for pvp assassacasters, PvE has better options.

When I play an assacaster, I'm not using daggers. When I play an AP spiker, I go for all out damage, and I don't depend on conditional shadowsteps in that case. The tactics and techniques are vastly different for both builds, so of course the skill layout and useage would be as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

You Kaleban...in my oppinion dont know a thing about Assassins...and probably not much...not much at all about the game in general. Shadow stepping into the mob brings it on yourself....all aggro on yourself...a Warrior can allow itself to do that with its high armor like they do all the time in the Deep for example but not an Assassin....because chances are....when you do this move safely or your backline, aka, overextending slightly to allow the aggro to settle on you before the healers can assist you...you would die...before they get to you...or atlest would be damaged quite a lot.

This quote says a lot about what you know. The bolded bit shows your ignorance. In PvE I regularly ctrl+shift+space henchies onto a target or mob, and once they've engaged, shadowstep in and kill everything without a scratch. Perhaps you should learn how the game mechanics work before commenting about them?

petrorabbit · May 18, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Just examples of what can be used in conjunction with AoD for aggro management and placement.

But it doesn't change that fact that [Finish Him] > AoDeath + escape step. Why? Because for your AoDeath to be safely used, you need to bring another skill. Sorry, but that isn't very efficient in use of your assassin bar.

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I wouldn't take [skill]Aura of Displacement[/skill] on an assacaster since it doesn't allow for other, better elites. For PvE, there's Promise, and for PvP stuff like Beguiling Haze. I do like the SW/Dash combo though.

I was pointing out that there are much better options for you to SS in and SS out other than your terrible [Augury of Death] + [Recall] combo.

Quote:

Here's where you're wrong I think. If, as an assacaster, you know that once a target reaches 50%, your chain will kill them and then recharge through AP, this then allows you to simply pop to each enemy as the group wears them down and destroy them. The assassin is made for single target damage, and this sort of "popcorn" technique is quite beneficial when you consider the amount of damage you'll be pumping out. Besides, in PvE, targets generally don't get killed one at a time, considering minion walls and skills like [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] that spread damage around. So once several targets get low, you pop your chain on them in rapid succession, and start blowing things up!

You think? Are you sure i'm wrong about that? Because you hexing a target and doing nothing till its at 50% means your group is doing all the work until your usefull. Hence you're being useless. And if you are running to different targets and auto attacking them till AoDeath triggers, you're not being very efficient with your time in combat. You're not using you're damaging skills to help the group until a target is basically half-dead, hence being useless.

Quote:

When I play an assacaster, I'm not using daggers. When I play an AP spiker, I go for all out damage, and I don't depend on conditional shadowsteps in that case. The tactics and techniques are vastly different for both builds, so of course the skill layout and useage would be as well.

Yes, when i play and assassacaster, i use a staff. I try to be useful to my group by using damage skills like [Dancing Daggers][Entangling Asp][Signet of Toxic Shock] when the target is nice and healthy, and [Finish Him] when its half dead. I don't just cast [Augury of Death] and tickle the other mobs till my hexed target is half dead from the work of other party members. I understand the difference in tactics between both builds, but i strive to be efficient for the party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I can't believe you haven't even mentioned [Ebon Escape] with its short recharge and healing of both the Assassin and the player the Assassin shadowsteps too. One of the best mobility tools in PvE imo as it can not only be used to get you onto the backline out of the way of combat but also onto the frontline with your tank to get into the combat while healing him too.

That actually slipped my mind. AB weekend has me thinking PvP.

edit: was writing this before there were requests to stop.

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

But it doesn't change that fact that [Finish Him] > AoDeath + escape step. Why? Because for your AoDeath to be safely used, you need to bring another skill. Sorry, but that isn't very efficient in use of your assassin bar.

I was pointing out that there are much better options for you to SS in and SS out other than your terrible [Augury of Death] + [Recall] combo.

You think? Are you sure i'm wrong about that? Because you hexing a target and doing nothing till its at 50% means your group is doing all the work until your usefull. Hence you're being useless. And if you are running to different targets and auto attacking them till AoDeath triggers, you're not being very efficient with your time in combat. You're not using you're damaging skills to help the group until a target is basically half-dead, hence being useless.

Yes, when i play and assassacaster, i use a staff. I try to be useful to my group by using damage skills like [Dancing Daggers][Entangling Asp][Signet of Toxic Shock] when the target is nice and healthy, and [Finish Him] when its half dead. I don't just cast [Augury of Death] and tickle the other mobs till my hexed target is half dead from the work of other party members. I understand the difference in tactics between both builds, but i strive to be efficient for the party.

When I play Assacaster I use a caster weapon set.

Here's the simplified version of reasons why to use Finish Him over AoD on an Assacaster bar in PvE.

1: It doesn't teleport you into a mob!
2: It doesn't interrupt your skills when triggered.
3: It isn't half ranged.
4: It is instant.

petrorabbit · May 18, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Kaleban, this is not just directed at you but everyone who reads this forum.

If you can't have a civil debate/argument/discussion without having to resort to personal insults, dont' bother posting. Not only will you come across as immature, you will make yourself look like the insults you are directing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

When I play Assacaster I use a caster weapon set.

Here's the simplified version of reasons why to use Finish Him over AoD on an Assacaster bar in PvE.

1: It doesn't teleport you into a mob!
2: It doesn't interrupt your skills when triggered.
3: It isn't half ranged.
4: It is instant.

exactly.

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

If you can't have a civil debate/argument/discussion without having to resort to personal insults, dont' bother posting. Not only will you come across as immature, you will make yourself look like the insults you are directing.

All I can say is QFT!!!

Stay on topic and keep it civil guys, there's just no need to senselessly argue like children over another persons opinion.

Super Igor · May 18, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

__________________________________________________ _______________

*Back on topic*

If I am not mistaken, the guide doesnnt have a basic Crit Barrage bar in it, so here what it should look like in my oppinion:

[build prof=A/R crit=12+1+1 marks=12][barrage][distracting shot][favorable winds][ebon battle standard of honor][critical agility][way of the master][critical eye][sunspear rebirth signet] or [savage shot][/build]

basically you play it as usual, but you have the aweasome ward to buff yours and your team's ranged damage.

Unreal Havoc · May 18, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

[build prof=A/R crit=12+1+1 marks=12][barrage][distracting shot][favorable winds][ebon battle standard of honor][critical agility][way of the master][critical eye][sunspear rebirth signet] or [savage shot][/build]

basically you play it as usual, but you have the aweasome ward to buff yours and your team's ranged damage.

You'ld be better off making the base template and adding the optionals, so the base template should be this:

[build prof=A/R crit=12+1+1 marks=12][critical agility][critical eye][barrage][distracting shot][savage shot][optional][optional][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]

Favouable Winds is only really taken in Barrage/Pet teams due to the setup time.

Ebon Battle Standard of Honour is good to take for extra damage to a Barrage/Pet team.

Critical Defenses and Way of Perfection make for impressive survivability.

Sharpen Daggers to spread bleeding around a mob (yes it still works as most mobs dont remove conditions)

Also from what I remember Way of the Master and Critical Eye dont stack, it's pointless taking both as you'll do just fine with Critical Eye which also aids in energy management with a Zealous Bow with the +1 on a critical hit.

I'm quite sure others will also think of some really good stuff to go in the barrager bar.

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

added havocs barrager build as its more general. If your going to make build templates for me to add please keep them general with only the necessary skills to run the build.

also had the flaming removed if it starts up again ill just have it removed again